Curse

SirErnieMacGloop · Nov 14, 2006, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Just to add to WasAGuest's quote of my post on another thread, because I feel this is a big part of the issue along with points I've made earlier in this thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirErnieMacGloop

Coding AI is one of the hardest things to do in programming, however when there are easily found problems just playing the game for a few hours it leads me to wonder just how much testing the AI had before being released. It makes me feel that we (the average GW player) are doing the Beta testing of this product for A-net..

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Nov 14, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bhaaltazar

.
And if there are 14 pages of complaints about GW than i think something should be done.. dont you?

1. yes, something should be done, they should quit.
2. you want something done, do it yourself, don't sit and moan
3. Anet is full of people just like us, they aren't gods, so if YOU don't know what to do, how can you expect them.

It's your world, make it what you wish, but NEVER sit idly by and merely spout complaints.

WasAGuest · Nov 14, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

@felinette - I agree; but it seems to me, to stop at a certain point... the AI. The AI, seems to be coded strickly for PvP like play. I'm not the only saying it, and I used SitErnie's (who btw has to date the best and funniest name I have yet seen

) quote as an example of a very well worded example of such.

I see it like this; Nightfall is near perfection in terms of promise. Huge land mass, explorable for the most part, wonderfully laid out areas full of things to see and do. References even in the art work around the land point to other areas of the world. Anyone else notice the huge Jade blocks on Istan? Obviously from the Jade Sea. Wonderful touch.

However, the core of the game is battle. Still is from day one. Now, after some patches, the AI is seemingly trying to mimick PvP play. Not just my opinion there, as Ernie's post shows (and again I used his, since it was well worded).

Now, this AI is simply ruining the core PvE game. Too make matter worse for all players, are posts like this one: here and even several in GWG that have been closed cause the flames got too hot...

Point is, weeks and no "fix" - difficult or not. It took Anet days to "fix" the AI bug at NF's release... the difference here leads me to think it's "Working as intended" - just as Gaile's suggested question hinted at.

Now, will they change it? Dunno. Hope so. Cause it sucks.

Anyway, if I sound cynical, I don't mean too. But I am rather irked at a lack of response and worse, no fix.

OffT - Ernie, wasn't picking on you. Thought your post was very good. The coding of the AI wasn't on topic here, but the way the AI is coded did apply here; hence the dropped part. AI attempting to act like PvPers is partially what is ruining the game for many of us. Seeing someone who liked it (you) shows that not only someone who doesn't like it (me) is thinking that's where Anet may be going with the AI... in other words, still trying to merge "oil and water" (PvE and PvP).

Edit: Here's yet another well worded one:

Quote:

Originally Posted by xXa1

sorry but i disagree, pvp is player vs player not player vs bot. anet should never have allowed ai into pvp areas because that defeats the essence of player vs player.

therefore, the ai belongs in pve where you face waves after waves of ai mobs. if anet intends the mobs to act intelligently and humanly, then rebalance the mobs in all pve maps. otherwise, the pve of gw quickly becomes frustrating which is the very core of everyone's complaints.

Jetdoc · Nov 14, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

What heroes did do is make it oh, so easy to turn away from pugs. It didn't open any new channels for solo play, however.

I actually disagree with your second statement, based on the sentence right before it.

I am finding that many of my friends and guildmates that would have normally PuG'ed it are using heroes now, for the simple reason that (1) they are more predictable and (2) more accessible. These are the same players that really didn't like using henchmen because of their limited skill sets, which, in many instances, did not work well with their builds.

So, yes - almost everyone that used henchmen prior to Nightfall are using heroes in Nightfall. However, I believe that the introduction of heroes have also caused many more players to turn this into a single-player PvE game (as Chief described above) that historically would have PuGed it.

I believe that is a partial reason for some of the boredom you're seeing players experience. There are many other reasons (as described in this thread) that players are feeling more and more discontent with the Nightfall content, but I believe this is a major player in that.

SirErnieMacGloop · Nov 14, 2006, 10:41 PM // 22:41

I know you weren't picking on me, and I'm actually agreeing with most of the "bored" players, I play PvE to get away from PvP and its stresses, if I wanted PvE to be like PvP I wouldn't bother with PvE, because the rewards for the hassle just aren't there like they are for PvP.

I just thought the other line added to the constructive reasons why so many have lost/are losing interest in PvE.

Off-topic: My name here is from my character on Toontown, Glad you like it! :-)

Zakarr · Nov 14, 2006, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Well, I have finally completed few missions in the mainland and it seems that so many people prefer AI mates. There are lots of moving players in the area but LFP messages are rare. Getting humans for quests is impossible. The change is clear.

First I thought that there is lots of new players which don't want to play with others because they want to learn and take their time. Another reason could be harder AI. So many are pissed with pugs because they die more often than in Prophecies or Factions. Perhaps third reason are the heroes and improved? henchmens which are just so effective, people don't bother with other players. Human interaction has been decreased. That is sure.

Sir Skullcrasher · Nov 14, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

I think i'll speed up to beat Nightfall with my wammo than move on to work on the survior title for my two new characters.

WasAGuest · Nov 14, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zakarr

Another reason could be harder AI. So many are pissed with pugs because they die more often than in Prophecies or Factions.

I'm confused here; could you explain what you mean here. I've seen nothing more difficult with the AI. All it does is run around. In fact, since the 31st, I think I've died once and that was while I stepped afk for a drink.

- course I haven't been wanting to play all that often either.

Trvth Jvstice · Nov 15, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

I'm confused here; could you explain what you mean here. I've seen nothing more difficult with the AI. All it does is run around. In fact, since the 31st, I think I've died once and that was while I stepped afk for a drink.

- course I haven't been wanting to play all that often either.

I agree, the general consensus is that playing Nightfall is too easy and therefore has become almost a single player rpg (while using heroes).

On topic: I still haven't seen anyone point out how farming has had a negative impact on the game or it's economy. I remember at one point when bot farming was at it's peak, sup vigors reached an all time low, but Anet successfully nerfed that without screwing over people that were farming for pleasure (and drops of course

).

I forget who the OP is but I'm sure he is frustrated as heck about how his thread has evolved into an argument about whether the game is more or less difficult now. I believe he wanted to discuss the problems with the AI change/farming nerfs and how they have made the game unplayable to someone that enjoys farming after they have beaten the game.

If only there was a way to take comments that don't relate to the OP's topic and move them to their own thread. I'm pretty sure this thread would have to be split into at least 4-5 different topics. lol

WasAGuest · Nov 15, 2006, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

I forget who the OP is but I'm sure he is frustrated as heck about how his thread has evolved into an argument about whether the game is more or less difficult now. I believe he wanted to discuss the problems with the AI change/farming nerfs and how they have made the game unplayable to someone that enjoys farming after they have beaten the game.

Actually, what I got from the OP, was that he was bored... and the reason for being bored came up.
Farming, the weak AI, lack of challenge, same ol' same ol' stuff... all these are reasons we are bored... and more. So I still see it as being on topic as they all relate to the point... we are bored.

Edit: typos... /sigh

Goldleader · Nov 15, 2006, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Yup, I'm getting a bit bored. I still have a LONG ways to go with Nightfall, but it just seems like more of the same.

I'm still a noob...only been playing since March. When I first started playing, I was amazed by the numbers of people and how quick and easy it was to form groups (compared to other games like Everquest, DAoC...etc).

Now that Factions and Nightfall are out, zones are becomming ghost towns. If you try creating a new character these days, you probably will have some difficulty finding groups in Prophesies or Factions.

Even Nightfall has zones that are quiet. I guess that's the problem with expansions. It spreads people out too much.

BrotherKurupt · Nov 15, 2006, 02:10 AM // 02:10

I have been playing on and off for about 15 months.

When I first started with Prophecies...Guild Wars was a time machine. I stepped into the world and at the end of each session, I would realize 10 hours just passed. Imagine Prophecies on a long-haul flight...you wouldn't even notice you were circling Bangkok for 20 minutes.

Prophecies had a lot of spirit. When new items were released, people rushed to find them. Remember Sorrow's Furnace and everyone rushing to find the entrance? Remember the Icy Dragon Sword and people forming groups ASAP to go team farm it? No one even cared too much about who was richer in game, as long as everyone got a sword in the end...Remember the first few holiday events? Fun and jubilation, everyone found groups and regardless of experience, had fun obtaining the cool items. In those days, there was always something to "talk about." There was always the "in" thing--bugged Battlepick! Thunderhead Keep bonus bug! Ice skating in Grotto! A TIGER EMOTE?! WOOT!

Factions inherently maintained spirit due to the momentum of Prophecies. Upon release, everyone ran to make their new characters--it was like being on foreign exchange. Shing Jea Monastery, with its beckoning arches and 5 synchronized naked dancing Bikini-baby ritualists (don't pretend you don't know what i'm talking about!

), was a great place to explore. Unfortunately, deep inside I didn't want to stay there. I wanted to explore Factions, reap everything, own some noobs but eventually come back and find out what was happening in Tyria. Factions missions? Action-packed. Though the thinning of the community was already happening, 16-person missions and huge Alliance Battles created great fun. I couldn't believe the Saltspray Dragon Hatchling was following me! Experience came fast, and even the mailman-type quests (deliver teddy bear to Jatoro or whatever) returned some serious XP points. Even then, people complained. I believe it's because they missed the good old days. Would Nightfall give us a new home? Would Nightfall offer a final, communal bastion on which to rest our laurels?

Nightfall didn't. Nightfall gave us ridiculously good scenery, amazing new skills, tons of explorable areas, an armada of fierce enemies. Nightfall also killed the spirit. While I'm not a fan of school spirit, corporate spirit, cheerleaders or bacardi, I do believe that Prophecies had a unique, Guild Wars "spirit." In Nightfall a lot of players, when given the option, prefer heroes over other people. I have nothing bad to say about ArenaNet or the game developers. Instead, I am sickened by the reluctance of players to revive the camaraderie. Who will message you to rave to you about the new Nightfall elite areas? Hopefully Koss, for there is no one else. Who will party with you, fight alongside you, get lost with you, re-zone your corpse and eventually triumph with you over the great boss Zerg Zerg the Gypsy in your attempt to steal his treasures? Hope that someone will, for in Nightfall, you always fight alone.

Sirus Dibley · Nov 15, 2006, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrotherKurupt

I have been playing on and off for about 15 months.

When I first started with Prophecies...Guild Wars was a time machine. I stepped into the world and at the end of each session, I would realize 10 hours just passed. Imagine Prophecies on a long-haul flight...you wouldn't even notice you were circling Bangkok for 20 minutes.

Prophecies had a lot of spirit. When new items were released, people rushed to find them. Remember Sorrow's Furnace and everyone rushing to find the entrance? Remember the Icy Dragon Sword and people forming groups ASAP to go team farm it? No one even cared too much about who was richer in game, as long as everyone got a sword in the end...Remember the first few holiday events? Fun and jubilation, everyone found groups and regardless of experience, had fun obtaining the cool items. In those days, there was always something to "talk about." There was always the "in" thing--bugged Battlepick! Thunderhead Keep bonus bug! Ice skating in Grotto! A TIGER EMOTE?! WOOT!

Factions inherently maintained spirit due to the momentum of Prophecies. Upon release, everyone ran to make their new characters--it was like being on foreign exchange. Shing Jea Monastery, with its beckoning arches and 5 synchronized naked dancing Bikini-baby ritualists (don't pretend you don't know what i'm talking about!

), was a great place to explore. Unfortunately, deep inside I didn't want to stay there. I wanted to explore Factions, reap everything, own some noobs but eventually come back and find out what was happening in Tyria. Factions missions? Action-packed. Though the thinning of the community was already happening, 16-person missions and huge Alliance Battles created great fun. I couldn't believe the Saltspray Dragon Hatchling was following me! Experience came fast, and even the mailman-type quests (deliver teddy bear to Jatoro or whatever) returned some serious XP points. Even then, people complained. I believe it's because they missed the good old days. Would Nightfall give us a new home? Would Nightfall offer a final, communal bastion on which to rest our laurels?

Nightfall didn't. Nightfall gave us ridiculously good scenery, amazing new skills, tons of explorable areas, an armada of fierce enemies. Nightfall also killed the spirit. While I'm not a fan of school spirit, corporate spirit, cheerleaders or bacardi, I do believe that Prophecies had a unique, Guild Wars "spirit." In Nightfall a lot of players, when given the option, prefer heroes over other people. I have nothing bad to say about ArenaNet or the game developers. Instead, I am sickened by the reluctance of players to revive the camaraderie. Who will message you to rave to you about the new Nightfall elite areas? Hopefully Koss, for there is no one else. Who will party with you, fight alongside you, get lost with you, re-zone your corpse and eventually triumph with you over the great boss Zerg Zerg the Gypsy in your attempt to steal his treasures? Hope that someone will, for in Nightfall, you always fight alone.

A brilliant post sir. Sums up my feelings exactly. Why even bother playing online anymore just make it a single player game , which whether you like it or not it has become.

And please dont come back and say "I never have a problem getting a group".........it does not change the facts, People now even owning in hoh with heroes and henchies. Heroes may have seemed a good idea at the time , and to the impatient players probably a dream come true. Mark my words - anet have inadvertently killed the game many of us love and treasure and the sad thing is , I do not think it is ever coming back.

4ssassin · Nov 15, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bloodrose

Well I'd say go back and read the first 10 pages, but somehow I think the whole meaning behind this post will get lost on you.

well...that was unneeded and hurtful...

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 15, 2006, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirus Dibley

A brilliant post sir. Sums up my feelings exactly. Why even bother playing online anymore just make it a single player game , which whether you like it or not it has become.

And please dont come back and say "I never have a problem getting a group".........it does not change the facts, People now even owning in hoh with heroes and henchies. Heroes may have seemed a good idea at the time , and to the impatient players probably a dream come true. Mark my words - anet have inadvertently killed the game many of us love and treasure and the sad thing is , I do not think it is ever coming back.

Well the blame of decreasing PUG groups can't be put on Heroes, it's the horrible unfriendly GW community that's the blame. Why put up with stuckup, arrogant or just plain jackhole-ish behaviour when you can just take heroes and henchies?

If the community were improved, I'm sure more people would form PUGS. Afterall, the magic of playing an online game is interacting with people....but sadly who wants to interact with the horrible general populace of GW? ANET didnt kill the game, we're all to blame.

Sirus Dibley · Nov 15, 2006, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

If the community were improved, I'm sure more people would form PUGS. Afterall, the magic of playing an online game is interacting with people....but sadly who wants to interact with the horrible general populace of GW? ANET didnt kill the game, we're all to blame.

In my years of playing gw the majority of people in a group have been fine , you always get the odd dick but that's life. To suggest that is why everyone is using heroes and henchies is not valid imo.

Mr Jazzy · Nov 15, 2006, 02:33 AM // 02:33

i would say i love using heroes in the explorable areas, especially for menial secondary quests or primary quests- heroes + henches are just that reliable and versatile.

however, i hate using henches for a mission. missions can last a long time, and to use henchies and not people is just asking for a boring experience.

my philosophy: group up with people on long affairs, but if its short, take the hero/henchie squad.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 15, 2006, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirus Dibley

In my years of playing gw the majority of people in a group have been fine , you always get the odd dick but that's life. To suggest that is why everyone is using heroes and henchies is not valid imo.

Then what's your opinion of why people are choosing the supposedly horrible henchie/hero A.I. over having real people to interact with?

Sirus Dibley · Nov 15, 2006, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

Then what's your opinion of why people are choosing the supposedly horrible henchie/hero A.I. over having real people to interact with?

Simple really - everyone is using them because it's quicker/easier , although that does not make it better.

But that's like saying I can walk to the shops and get some excercise but it will take me longer , or I can drive but I will get there a lot quicker. Put that in an online pve enviroment and you have your answer,,,,,

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 15, 2006, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirus Dibley

Simple really - everyone is using them because it's quicker/easier , although that does not make it better.

But that's like saying I can walk to the shops and get some excercise but it will take me longer , or I can drive but I will get there a lot quicker. Put that in an online pve enviroment and you have your answer,,,,,

I don't like analogies. You can always find one to fit your arguments. I could, for example, say that GW is like a road trip. And everyone in it is a potential travelling companion. And currently most of the travelling companions that you have to choose from are so damn annoying that I choose to take my road trip alone (i.e. with henchies)